This topic contains 10 replies, has 2 voices, and was last updated by Ken S 4 years, 9 months ago.
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Ken SI recently communicated with a stein seller on Ebay who is advertising a stein with what appears to clearly be a Diesinger type 2 handle, but the design itself does not have the typical Diesinger traits. The seller said they were in touch with Frank Loevi and that it was identified as a D and B stein not yet in the BSL and it had a DB10 handle. I have added two photos of two steins I have, one stein is very clearly a Diesinger and the second one has what appears to be a Diesinger type 2 handle but on a stein body that does not have the typical Diesinger traits as well. Both the Ebay stein and my stein have the same textured bandings in brown. It is unmarked except for a number on the bottom. Frank if you are available to answer this, can you go over this in more detail?
http://s724.photobucket.com/user/ken960/library/?sort=3&page=1
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RonKen,
Your second stein is in TBSL Diesinger catalog as mold 409. Why don’t you go to Frank’s site and contact him directly. He is no longer a member of SCI and may not visit this forum.
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The second is 409 in the Dümler & Breiden catalog.
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RonBill,
You are correct. I did a word search for the listing and must have thought I was in the Diesinger catalog.
Ken, do you have the eBay listing for the other stein?
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Ken SThanks Ron and Bill. I’ll try to reach Frank. Do either of you have more info as to why the D and B has what appears to be a Diesinger handle? Was there a relationship between these two manufacturers that I am not aware of?
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Ken,
Frank does list handle DB10 in red, warning that it might be confused with handles AD3 and AD4. One thing to think about is that Diesinger doesn’t seem to have any steins with a mold number in the 400s. -
Ken S201613332452 Ebay item #. Also, no one has more info regarding the handles and similarities? Possible relationship between these two manufacturers? Or did D and B simply copy/steal the handle design?
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Ken,
I think probably the latter. Many of the Höhr and Grenzhausen makers, in a relatively small area, saw the work of the others and assimilated what they liked. -
Ken SThx Bill, I guess that must be the answer then. I bet over the years a lot of unmarked D and B’s were misidentified as Diesingers going by this type of handle. Sent Frank a message thru the BSL site, but haven’t heard yet.
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RonKen,
The ebay listing is now included in TBSL D&B catalog. It might be a little harsh to say one firm stole the other’s handle (how do we know who was the first to use it). There are only so many ways to make a beer stein handle, so let us just say they probably took steps to make their handles look different. The Westerwald Beer Stein Handle Gallery does warn the viewer when there are similar handles with the red background as Bill points out. Keep in mind that this gallery only covers 12 manufacturers and 812 handles. At worst, it is only one attribute to help identify the maker.
Stein auction catalogs rarely show a photo of the handle. TBSL and ebay listings usually show the handle. I had an unmarked stein I was trying to identify and got a hit on the handle. When I look in that manufacturer’s catalog on TBSL I could only find one stein with that handle (and it wasn’t mine). I asked Frank how he was compiling the gallery, but he wasn’t interested in sharing it with me. I then reviewed the catalog again and found one scene that appeared in one panel of my stein.
When we see something in print we tend to take it as fact. In many cases it is an error that has just been compounded by multiple printings. Although the listings in the catalogs can be traced to a manufacturer’s catalog in some cases or has their mark, the photos do not state how it was identified (mark, catalog or other attribute). I have seen some listing misidentified and later corrected. It would be helpful if the source of identification were identified and referenced.
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Ken SI heard back from Frank and here is his response. He said it was OK to post it:
Appearance of the handles in question occurred in the same general time frame (circa 1895) in both companies, so there’s no basis for the belief that the design was first created at Diesinger. In fact, it’s more likely that the handle design was carried to Diesinger by someone initially apprenticed to Peter Dümler, who trained a number of the era’s Westerwald modelers. We’ll probably never know for sure, but similar movement of design concepts have been seen with Thewalt’s principal modeler, Wilhelm Kamp, who apprenticed with Dümler in 1896, prior to assuming his design role at Thewalt.
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