[Francatan]

Hello,
is there any catalog of the WW Team 3D Steins? I’ve been looking for so many years, but invain.
Does anybody know where I can find it?
Thank you for your help.

[Ron]

Fran,
I have never seen a web site for Westerwald Team. You might try contacting germansteins.com or steincenter.com. Both sites carry WW Team steins. They might be able to direct you to a catalog.

[Francatan]

Hi Ron,
thanks for your quick response first; a few years ago I wrote to the WW Team manufacturer, asking for the catalog, but they didn’t answer.
The hope is if there’s some collector of these steins that may help.
For example, I wish to know how many steins complete the series “Romantic Germany”; I have the first 7 in the series and the 9th. I don’t know how number 8 in the series and the following ones are called.
In my collection I also have other series and a few single issue steins.

[Ron]

Fran,

WW-Team is not a manufacturer. It is two individuals, Hans Peter Eisenmkopf and Joachim Malessa That come up with an idea that they then tell a modeler to make the mold. Once the mold is made they engage a manufacturer. This information is from an article by Frank Loevi in the June 1998 Prosit quarterly nagazine of SCI. Here is an article by Paul Clark on WW-Team steins, http://stein-collectors.org/library/articles/ThreeDimensional/CharmedThreeDimensional.html.

WW-Team started out using Marzi & Remy, When that firm went bankrupt they switched to Gerz, who also went bankrupt.

M. Cornell Importers carries WW-Team steins. You might try contacting them. If all else fails you can accumulate your own catalog. Just search the Internet for other WW-Team steins.

[Francatan]

Ron,
before you answered to me, I had already red the article by Paul Clark on WW Team steins that you gently linked.
There are a few mistakes on that article, and precisely:
1-Germany’s Most Beautiful Citadels, Castles and Buildings series is made by 12 steins and not 11 how reported in that article;
2-Romantic Germany series it’s not made by 7 steins only, I got number 9 called Cuckoo Clock, don’t know how number 8 is called and neither how many steins complete the whole series;
3-Famous City of the World series is made by 5 only steins, Paul Clark wrongly reported that number 6 stein ought to be San Francisco, but that stein was never issued.
All the steins that belong at the above mentioned series were issued in 9,000 limited numbered edition. It’s quite strange that is very hard to find other 3D WW Team collectors, personally I think that all those steins are very nice to collect.
And incredible but true, apparently seems that doesn’t exist a WW Team catalog.

[Ron]

Fran,

Contact the dealers and retailers that handle WW-Team. If they can’t direct you to a catalog, maybe they can put you in touch with other collectors. You can also search the Interet and auction sites for examples of WW-Team steins and make your own catalog. Good Luck.

[Francatan]

Ron,
I searched on German Google too, but I didn’t find any. And consider that not every question asked on Internet have a proper answer.
I show you another example: I’ve been looking for so many months the 39L Girmscheid stein, but no answer has been found. Do you think there isn’t any dealer or retailer that sell that stein?
As a matter of fact, I dare say that on Internet not always we can find what are we looking for.
In any case, thanks a lot for all the advices you gave me.

[Ron]

Fran,
Master Painter Peter Willis, stein-man.de had the Girmscheid 39 L stein on his site. That site, however, has been down for some time for maintenance. I had asked him some questions about it, but he is not very responsive. I believe he is in the Westerwald area. He used to work for Gerz, but went out on his own when they went bankrupt. Do you live in Germany? I get all kinds of 3d steins when I search google.com.

[Francatan]

Ron,
I knew that Peter Willis, stein-man.de, was the only one that had the stein, but unfortunately his site is down since a lot of time for maintenance.
I wonder if nobody else but him can get that stein to sell.
I live in Italy, and it’s hard to believe that an Italian can be a steins’ collector, it’s quite unusual.
I would ask what 3D steins you got on google.com, I’m a fan of these steins and it’s quite impossible that you can find some stein that I miss in my collection.
I made a lot of search in the past, any good news.
For this reason I’d like to get the catalog, I’m really curious to know what steins is missing.

[Ron]

Fran,

I have been in the process of gathering information on the three largest pottery steins for an article.

The Gerz 32 L stein is the most well-known, but it is not the largest and the the wrong artist and the wrong painting has been credited for years.

I first became aware of the 39 L Girmscheid when I saw it on stein-man.de. It is rarer, but still falls short of being the largest pottery stein. The Schnitzelhaus restaurant in Tampa, FL, USA showed one on their web site and they may have displayed it in their bar. That restaurant has now closed. Frankly, the large steins are more likely to be found in bars. Where would an ordinary collector display such a large stein. You can see the pint size (actually a 24 Liter size) version in the Girmscheid catalog at The Beer Stein Library. Just look for number X13,

The largest known pottery stein was made by Duemler & Breiden in 1889. It is over six feet tall. It recently resurfaced in the US.

M. Cornell Importers web site states that Joachim Malessa has died and his wife and son Bjorn have taken over his duties with the WW-Team partnership. You might try contacting Bjorn as he might be more inclined to respond to your request.

If you are persistent in your search of web sites and auction sites (like ebay, etsy, invaluable, etc.}, you should be able to gather the information you seek on your steins.

[Francatan]

Ron,

the Gerz 32 L stein, as you correctly said the most well known and (wrongly) called the Largest Stein in the World, was produced by Gerz in yellow glazed color.

Later, after Gerz bankrupt, this stein was produced by Zoller & Born, but in different color, rustic brown.

Notice that this stein is produced upon custom order only and is not cheap. I got both colored steins in my collection, and I’m proud and happy to have them.

The Girmscheid 39 L stein is produced in 2 colors version, cobalt glazed blue and salt glazed beige. Both stein were available on Willis Stein-Man.de site. A few years ago I contacted him and I was going to purchase the salt glazed beige stein. It happened that on internet I saw the 24 L size full colored version of that stein, I loved it so much, and I tried to make a search of that marvelous stein.

I made a big mistake, or rather 2. I didn’t know that the full colored version stein was produced in a minor size only (24 L, as reported on Girmscheid catalog number X13), so that stein, still beautiful, was not what I was looking for.

When I tried to contact again Bruce Willis to order the 39 L stein, unfortunately his site was down for maintenaince. I tried to contact the Girmscheid manufacturer too, but they answered that this stein is no more produced, neither upon custom order.

I didn’t know about that 6 feet tall Dumler & Breiden stein, I made a search on internet, but I haven’t found any news about it. I found the Dumler & Breiden catalog, I watched all the steins, but no mention about that big stein. I liked so much the reservist stein showed in the catalog and thought how I have been stupid in the past to not increase bid in tha auction of King Solomon 6 L stein, it deserved to be added in my collection.

I truly appreciate our nice conversation.

[Ron]

Fran,

Nothing wrong with being Italian and liking steins. CapodiMonte made beer steins. Veneto Flair is a modern Italian firm that makes beer steins, but I don’t know anything about them. Cesare Cardinale was an Italian modeler that worked for A J Thewalt, see http://www.steinmarks.co.uk/pages/pv.asp?p=stein590. Are you a member of SCI? There is a local chapter in Germany.

You should try contacting this guy with 10,000 steins, https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/beer-stein-museum. He has to have one or two. He does have the Gerz 32 L stein.

Did you know that Albert J Thewalt also had a version of the Gerz stein? When Gerz moved to a new location, Albert help train them on firing this huge stein. In return, they granted him the right to make 100 of the steins under his name. It is discussed in my article on Thewalt in the Reading Room.

The D&B stein was a one of a kind stein. The introduction to D&B in The Beer Stein Library shows a photo of the stein outside their factory in 1893.

When you contact WW-Team again, tell them you are considering making a web site on their 3D steins. I bet that would get their attention and cooperation.

[Ron]

Fran,

Here is a photo of Mary Brian (1906-2002) an actress with Paramount beside the Girmscheid stein. I don’t know which movie this was featured in, probably late 20s or early 30s. See https://www.ebay.com/itm/202453416240. The stein is not 200 years old though.

[Francatan]

Ron,

of course nothing wrong for an Italian guy to collects steins, it’s a really nice hobby anyway, but the point is that even if Usa and Western Europe belong to the same western civilization countries, in Europe each country has its own lifestyle and so that collecting stein might be compared to an American who is fan of some European soccer team and watch all the games on tv every week. It sounds very strange.

In Italy having an hobby like that means that I can’t have any friend with the same hobby and in 2nd place collect steins is quite expensive, because purchasing steins from Usa I have to support high shipping cost and custom fees. And besides, altough my entire collection is worth of great consideration and not trascurable value, but the day I wish to sell the steins, nobody would be interested. Italians not, because they won’t spend much money for something that they find beautiful to see but not cheap to get, and Germans neither because they will never buy abroad what they produce.

I’m not a member of SCI yet, quite soon I’ll subscribe, and as you correctly said, the nearest local chapter is not behind the corner, is in Germany.

Very impressive the collection of over than 10,000 steins that owns at that guy you linked, he does have the 32 L Gerz stein too, but not in full colors like mines.

I didn’t know the interesting information about A.J. Thewalt you told me, there’s always something to learn each time I talk with a great stein’ expert like you.

Very interesting the photo of that Mary Brian, and I’m totally agree with you, the stein is not 200 years old. I guess that the 39L Girmscheid stein was issued around the early 80′, or not before than middle 70′.

[Ron]

Fran,

I hate to deflate your ego, but do you realize you probably don’t own the tallest Gerz 32 L stein? Someone had a pewter lid and finial made for theirs plus adding a pewter base with a music box. You can view it at https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/9963891_163-monumental-stein-w-elaborate-pewter-lid-and-finial. It sold in the Ron Fox auction on November 19, 2011 for $3,600. It is the same capacity, but it does significantly increase the height.

BTW, I have shortened your name or tag to Fran. Is that OK?

[Francatan]

Ron,

wow!!! Each time I read your messages, you pleasantly surprise me. I’ve never seen before the 32L Gerz stein with that imponent pewter lid plus pewter base with a music box too. You don’t deflate my ego at all, you gave me another information to add at that stein.

So, that stein is painted in the most known yellow glaze and rustic brown, I’ve seen some photos which it was painted all white, all orange and all black with gold rims, I’ve seen 2 kind of lids, the classic with King Gambrinus (that makes the stein 4 feet tall with lid included) and another version with another lid, I can’t describe now what exactily its shape is, the only thing that I know for certain is that this lid is lower than King Gambrinus and consequently let all the stein lower, it’s about 46″.

The stein you linked is 57″ tall, and despite its capacity is 32L too, it is definitely the tallest stein I’ve seen. Sold at $3,600 a lot of money, but not too much, considering that it might be one of a kind.

1 penny for my thoughts. If I found that marvelous 57″ 32L Gerz and the 39L Girmscheid stein and could only take one, which one would I choose? I’m sure the 39L Girmscheid, but not because I already got both colors 32L Gerz steins, the 39L is more beautiful and the fact that is capacity is higher makes it more attractive.

Francatan is my name and surname together shortened, Fran if for Francesco (Italian name of English Frank) and catan is for Catanzaro (no translation for this surname). So it’s up to, you can tag me in the way you like more, no problem at all.

[Ron]

Fran,

The other lid is someone playing the harp. Did you read my article on Albert Jacob Thewalt in the Reading section (part III discusses the 32 L Gerz stein).

I seem to recall someone telling me that four feet is about the maximum size for firing pottery. There is problems with cracking when you go higher than that. I will have to confirm it with some pottery companies. The D&B stein is listed as 2,1 meters, but that includes the lid. The lid is around a foot tall as it features Germania. The lids, of course would be fired separately.

I did buy the Mary Brian photo for my article. I think I have a likely candidate for the film, but unfortunately it is lost.

The Girmscheid and Gerz steins are about the same height. I was trying to get the dimensions from Peter so I could verify the capacity. He never got back to me. I think the Girmsheid stein is wider at the base, giving it the extra 7 liter advantage. I should warn you that we had some complaints about Peter a few years ago (just Google his name and you should find the discussion in SteinTalk). He was taking care of his mother and neglected his business.

[jstrassbergerParticipant]

Fran, We have two members who live in Italy, in Cinisello Balsamo (Milan) and Trieste. If you would like to get in touch with them, send your email address at: scidb@cox.net I will forward it to them.

[Francatan]

Ron,

I haven’t red your article on A.J.Thewalt yet, quite soon I’ll do.

The big problem and consequently the high cost of these big steins is that they crack during firing.
They are produced only upon custom order, and it takes 10 weeks to get it ready because many attempts have to be done till a stein after firing comes out in one piece safe and sound.

The Gerz 32L is tall 4 feet, or 48″ if someone prefer (I mean with King Gambrinus lid included), in European measurement is 1,2 meters, or 120 cm or 1200 mm. I personally measured it again before writing, confirm it’s 120 cm.

I don’t have any news about the Girmscheid 39L stein how is wide at the base, obviously I suppose it ought to be a little wider than the Gerz, but I red someplace, if I’m not wrong on the Stein-man web site, that it’s 130 cm tall (4″ more than the Gerz).

jstrassberger,

thank you for your inquiry, no problem to leave my email address, I have to find 10 minutes to subscribe at SCI, I cannot miss to do it.

[Ron]

Fran,

I have always told people that once the steins got bigger than 5 L, they were just for show. Now I have to revise my thinking. I found a newspaper photo of somebody doing chug-a-lug with the Gerz 32 L stein. I don’t think they filled it to the top for the contest.

[Francatan]

Ron,

I red your article, my vivid compliments, a very super work you done, accurate details mentioned e full of important information for collectors. Appreciate that.

I have personally measured the capacity of steins of 5 or 6 L filling them with 1 L of water, and generally they have a room at the top for foam beyond the capacity. Lately I was surprised that a 5 L stein that a mark on the bottom says 5 L and that stein hold 6 L.

I have 1 12 L stein too, but I didn’t measured the capacity, I’m afraid I could break or damage it pulling out the water.

I would never dream to measure the capacity of the 32 L stein, it’s quite heavy empty, I cannot think how it may weight filled with water totally. How many people will need to lift it up to pull out the water? Even with all due caution, the handle would certainly break. Obviously, I mean certainly not by lifting it by the handle.

I’ve been thinking to what you suggested to me, why don’t start to do a 3 D WW Team catalog with all the information and the photo I keep? There’s a problem, I’m a precise man and I like doing things perfectly. Of what I’m going to say, I don’t know if you or someone else can give me a precise answer.

You know, the 3 D WW Team stein, like many other steins of other manufacturers, are issued in a limited edition number and most of time belong to a series. Generally, the 3 D WW Team steins that belong to a series, are issued in 9,000. However, it’s not infrequently that the same stein is made with a different lid. Not removable lid. In my opinion just one kind of lid makes the original stein, but the question is the following: how many stein are totally issued, 9,000 all regardless the type of lid, or 9,000 for each of the various lid? And besides, I have seen stein without even the number marked on the bottom, so I have to deduce that the limited edition number is a bluff?

All detailed information about it are welcome, I wonder if there could be a right answer.

[Ron]

Fran,

It is much easier and a lot more fun to calculate the capacity of smaller beer steins by filling them with bottles of beer. For larger steins, however, it is easier and safer to calculate thee capacity via mathematics. If you know the height and radius of a cylinder, you can calculate the capacity. The Gerz stein tapers to the top. By averaging the top diameter and the bottom diameter you basically are converting it to a cylinder. Use the inside measures. This is easy for the top. For the bottom, use the outer diameter and subtract the two sides of the stein. Measuring the inside of the stein for the height you will need to stop short of the rim, say one inches. The Gambrinus lid is about 14-16 inches high. Using 30 inches for the inside height and 4.5 inches for the inside radius gives you 1642 cubic inches. There are 231 cubic inches in a gallon. This equals about 8.5 gallons which is what most sites rate it. Some sites say the stein weighs 35 pounds. A gallon of water weighs 8.345 pounds. I suspect beer might weigh slightly more, but I couldn’t find the calculation. The water weight is close enough. The 8.5 gallons of beer will add 66.8 pounds to it, just over 100 pounds in total. Our beers are generally 12 ounces, so that would hold about 825 bottles of beer. You can find European measures online.

I found another photo of the Girmscheid stein from 1953. I think I know the wedding scene, but I have not been able to find the painting.

I will try contacting WW-Team for you. If you look at enough auctions and stein sites, I am sure you will be able to find enough photos and information on the 3D steins. The 9,000 is a popular quantity for the so-called limited editions, but it is just an approximation. They don’t make 9,000 all at once. Some crack in firing and some break in shipping. If it is not a popular seller, they don’t finish producing the entire run.

[Ron]

Fran,

Here are two more pictures of the Girmscheid 39 L stein, https://www.ebay.com/itm/1953-Press-Photo-Vintage-Hellmuth-Falk-Milwaukee-Wi-University-Berlin-Stein-7X9/164098971080?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 and https://www.pinterest.ie/pin/314618723961010238/?amp_client_id=CLIENT_ID(_)&mweb_unauth_id=&from_amp_pin_page=true.

Tom Rupp, manager of Stoudt’s Brewery in Adamstown, PA, was holding the Gerz 32 L stein by the handle as someone was drinking the beer. It was not full. I imagine they only had one or two liters in it for the contest.

[Francatan]

Ron,

as time goes by, our conversation become even more interesting.

I was really impressed by you engineeering calculations to measure capacity, they are truly extraordinary. I think that in that way there can be a very minimal, insignificant percent of mistake. I mean, if quite effectively the 32 L stein capacity is more or less a bottle (or a can) of beer, we can’t say that the capacity reported is wrong.

All above mentioned, is about a very extra large stein. I don’t understand why on stein of 6 L of capacity is reported 5 L on the bottom. It goes against manufacturer’s interest, because in this way the value of the stein decreases.

Give a look at this Ebay auction, seller modified the description after I sent him a note:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-6L-German-Beer-Stein-by-Simon-Peter-Gerz-1080-Homecoming-from-the-War/202981222538?hash=item2f429fa88a:g:ItUAAOSwVw9elgsH

A little town 40 minutes far from mine is famous in all Italy because they product handmade ceramic jars, plates, amphoraes etc. 14 years ago, when my father passed away, I went there to buy a couple of oil lamps, as my mother wished. I made friendship with the handworker by whom I bought the lamps. Subsequently, when I became a stein collector, I took to him a few steins delivered broken for repair. What a marvelous work he did, steins looked like new. One day I asked him if in his experience it might be safe to lift a very heavy stein by the handle. His response was clear, avoid absolutely to do it because handle can be detached from the stein.

All I want to say is that Tom Rupp was lucky to lift the 32 L stein by handle, I’m afraid to lift up the 12 L and I’m proud to be wise.

I’ve no word to thank you for all you are going to do for me, contact the WW Team. I add to say that it’s absolutely true that some steins crack in fire, but the complete issues ought to be 9,000 in one piece safe and all numbered.

But the question is another, I guess that each stein has its own original lid, why are issued other steins with other lids? And how many stein are effectively issued, 9,000 or 9,000 for each stein with different lids? That would be very interesting to know.

Thank you again for all you can do for me.

[Ron]

Fran,

I think we have set a record for the longest discussion on SteinTalk, which is appropriate as this is a big subject we are discussing. Besides, what else do we have to do during the COVID-19 lock down. Enough is enough, I am ready to get out in the world again.

That 6 L stein on ebay was just marked wrong in production, although sometimes they would vary the capacity marks for minor variations. I bought a 0,4 L stein that is usually marked 0,5 L. I think they are no doubt the same physical size. For a large stein that is a big difference and an obvious mistake. I wouldn’t necessarily take for granted that the one in TBSL is 8,0 L though, as Frank doesn’t show the capacity mark or any other marks. There are some differences between the two steins, different circular marks above and below the scene and the lady in TBSL is holding her arm higher with something in her hand. I think they are two different molds. I have asked the seller to provide the necessary dimensions so I can calculate the volume.

Manufacturers did sell steins without lids and with varying types of lids. And the painters did have the authority to vary the color selections on the scenes they were painting. I don’t know if the different lids are appropriate for WW-Team, but suspect they are all counted together in the 9,000 limited edition. If I can contact WW-Team I will ask them.

[Ron]

Fran,

The average radius is 2.625 inches and the interior height he gave me was 20 inches. Since 6 L is equal to 366.14 cubic inches, that would get the liquid up to the 17 inch level, 3 inches below the rim. We are in the ballpark.

[Francatan]

Ron,

I personally checked on Stein Talk and discovered that at pag 41 there’s a topic, started by you, that reached 26 posts. Right now we’re equaling it, if you reply, we’ll set a record. I’m joking, we’re talking of very interesting arguments that whoever read will enrich his knowledge.

Let me add some more detailed information about the different lids on the 3 D WW Team, everybody can better understand the sense of this talk, otherwise it may look a simple extravagance of mine.

Give a look at the German Ebay WW Team web site, here’s the link:
https://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_odkw=keramik+bier+krug&_sop=10&_from=R40&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xww+team+bier+krug&_nkw=ww+team+bier+krug&_sacat=0

In particular, check 2 steins consecutively between them, the WW Team Schloss Neuschwanstein bierkrug sale price Eur 79,00 and after that the WW Team bierkrug Lokomotive Rheingolde Express, sale price Eur 54,00.

That above mentioned link shows exactily what I’m supposed to mean.

The 1st stein, the Neuschwanstein castle, wears an emerald lid on the top and, trust me, that’s not the original lid because the proper lid is a miniature of the castle. In my personal opinion, a stein without the castle lid has less value.

The 2nd stein, the Rheingold Express, wears the original and proper lid, a locomotive. The stein I got in my collection doesn’t wear the same lid, it wears a mountain and that is not the original lid, so that my stein has less value.

And the same situation is common to many other 3 D WW Team steins too. The final question is: why WW Team Company made (or allowed) a shame like that? If 9,000 steins were issued with the original lid, all the other steins with different lid how can be classified, a simple souvenir? A serious collector disapproves that.

And I dare say that the same situation is with the Gerz 32 L too, the original removable lid is that with King Gambrinus (that makes the whole stein taller), not the one with an angel. The lid with an angel let the stein minor value.

I guess that steins with maker unknown not issued in numbered limited edition can wear different lids, but they are not searched by collectors, are simple souvenir for tourist.

I’m really curious to know what WW Team will say, let’s hope they’ll answer.

I’m agree with you, we’ve had enough with this lock down due to Covid-19, let’s hope we can back to normality soon.

[Francatan]

Ron,

I add the link of the Usa Ebay WW Team which are on sale 3 WW Team Neuschwenstein stein with the original miniature castle lid.

And besides there are 2 WW Team London commemorative stein without the original lid, the original lid reproduce a ceramic miniature panoramic view of London. I got the stein with the original lid and can ensure that is much better.

[Ron]

Fran,

I see what you mean on the Neuschwanstein steins. Beside the different lids, they are different colors too. I think they are two different series. The mark on the bottom doesn’t tell you the series or manufacturer. Did you ever check out this dealer for WW-Team 3D steins, https://www.beer-steins.com/german/famous.html? The original tag attached to the stein probably provides more information.

I am trying a couple more sources to get the WW-Team contact. I guess we can keep this going a little bit longer. Maybe someone else will jump in too.

[Ron]

Fran,

Here is the Gerz 32 L stein with the angel playing the harp, https://www.ebay.com/itm/MID-CENTURY-W-GERMANY-GERZ-STEIN-ONE-OF-THE-WORLDS-LARGEST/254588051405?hash=item3b46a15fcd:g:~KYAAOSwTUZdPZaV, A little different coloring too.

I found out the the guy you told his stein said 5 L also has the Girmscheid 24 L stein.

[Francatan]

Ron,

I’m laughing smile because our dialogue is day after day more alluring, and for some way, expecially what I’m going to tell you now, it may look that I live in the States, not in Italy.

First of all, let me correct you about the different color of the Neuschwanstein stein you noticed. There are 2 types of Neuschwenstein stein, they may look similar, but they are painted differently.

1 of them is called “Neuschwenstein Castle Commemorative Stein” and is the 1st in the series Germany’s Most Beautiful Citadels, Castles and Building.

The 2nd, that belong to the same series, is the 9th in the series and is called “Neuschwanstein in Winter Commemorative stein”. Basically it shows tha castle snowed.

The above mentioned steins look like each other, but are different, no doubts about that.

There’s also a 3rd Neuschwenstein WW Team 3 D stein, bigger than the other 2, single issue, called “Neuschwanstein Castle – King Ludwig’s dream – one of the seven modern wonders of the world”.

You’re right, the mark on the bottom doesn’t tell the series, instead in the COA is reported.

I already knew the site you linked, the Great American Brewery Shoppe, I made a couple of purchases and the guy with whom I made the deal doesn’t work with them anymore and he gently informed me that I might contact him if I needed some stein, he started to work on his own.

Lately I sent a note to the seller of the 32 L Gerz stein with the angel playing a harp, I still keep that note and with pleasure I show you, but the fact that seller didn’t answer to me, I should have taken it by his silent that he didn’t appreciate.

That was my note:

Forgive my intrusion, but I wish to give you some information about your stein. This stein can holds 32 Liter (8.45 gallon), is know as “The largest stein in the world”, but it’s not true, there’s another stein larger, it’s the Girmescheid 39 liter.
The original version of this stein is with another lid, precisely with king Gambrinus. The original lid also make this stein taller and sale price higher. I attach at this note a photo of my collection that shows both colors version.
The point is that your stein, with another kind of lid, let the value of the stein lower. In my personal opinion, sale price of your stein ought to be close to $1,000.00 to $1,200.00. Hope you won’t be offended, in any case I wish you to sell at $2,800.00
Best wishes, Francesco

I guess that next time I’d rather do my own business, even if I think to be right and suppose to make a fovour.

The guy that own the 6 L Girmscheid stein is a gentleman with whom is a pleasure to talk about of everything. I will make business with him without hesitation.

[Ron]

Fran,

I don’t think there would be that much difference in the two lids, although any difference would favor King Gambrinus, if only due to height.

I found a better listing to view the Girmscheid stein, https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5173995_3-german-wedding-beer-stein-early-20-c-stamped-german. This site does not list the capacity or height. It does show better detail though. The dimensions that Bob gave me look more like a 32 L stein. Can you give me the top inner diameter, the bottom outer diameter (we may have to make an adjustment if there is a false bottom), the thickness of the walls of the body and the inner height of the Gerz stein?

I found the image on the stein. I am trying to find out who the artist was and when it was made. I think I know who the couple is.

[Ron]

Fran,

Another photo of the Girmscheid stein in a shop window in Munich, http://www.brendapokorny.com/Home/czech-republic/munich.

[Francatan]

Ron,

when Bob showed to me his big Girmscheid stein, I immediately wrote to him how lucky he was to get that marvelous 39 L stein, painted colorfully. He replied that his stein’s capacity was of 24 L only, that stein was littler that the Gerz 32 L that he owns too.

He’s a precise man, altough on the bottom of the stein it’s not marked the capacity, it wouldn’t be in his interest to say that the capacity is minor. All the few information that I got about that stein is that the 24 L was issued many many years ago, cannot say approx when, early ’50?

Later, probably around the ’80, was issued the bigger stein, the 39 L. And it was manufactured not colorfully, but in 2 version, salt glazed blue and salt glazed beige. And according to what the Girmscheid’s secretary told me about 30 or 40 days ago, it is out of stock and won’t be manufactured any more.

I measured the 32 L Gerz with English measurements. Height of the stein is exactly what manufacturer declares, so it’s 4 feet, lidded included, 37″ the stein, 11″ the lid and 36″ the inner height.

Top inner diameter is 6″, bottom outer diameter is 11″1/2 and thickness of the wall is “1/4.

The photo you found of the Girmscheid in a shop window in Munich is very old, I found it too many years ago. I really think I will have to settle for just the photos, it will be almost impossible to have that wonderful giant stein.

[Ron]

Fran,

I have been silent the last two days because I hit a brick wall.I calculated Bob’s Girmscheid stein at 27 L. I found somebody else with that stein and will be getting their measurements. I don’t know where Frank got the 24 L measurement for The Beer Stein Library. I calculated Bob’s Gerz stein at 42 L. His stein had a 14.5 inch diameter at the base versus your 11.5 inches. Some of the other measurements were a little bit off too.

All I can think is that Gerz and Girmscheid may have had a battle over who could make the world’s largest stein. Zoeller & Born was the last one to make the stein, so I am trying to contact them to see if they can shed any light on the subject. I am also trying to contact Girmscheid.

[Francatan]

Ron,
I’m sorry about your misfortune, but don’t worry, no hurry to reply to me soon. Do it in your spare time, writing and sharing our experience on this nice hobby must be a pleasure, so no problem at all.
We have a common friend, he’s another american stein collector who lives in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. He personally knows you and told me that you are 1 of the top 5 stein experts in the world. What a great pleasure I feel to have met you.

A couple of hours ago I wrote to Bob just to let him know what consistent difference there’s in the base diameter of the 32L Gerz stein between mine and his. 3″, 14.5″ Bob’s stein and 11.5″ mine isn’t a trascurable difference, consequently if height of the stein is the same, capacity ought to be different. If Gerz declares that capacity is 32L, my stein’s capacity should be minor, or Bob’s stein ought to be upper.

I’m seriously thinking to fill the stein with water, just to personally verify the real capacity, let me find a safe way first to empty the stein without any risk of breaking. I must look in the cellar it there’s still the tool that my father used to transfer the wine from the demijohns.

Now it’s a matter of principle, I have to check to trust. The fact is that I have 2 similar steins, 1 manufactured by Gerz and the other by Zoller $ Born. Same height, same diameter at the base and at the neck, only painted differently.

Each time I see that stein on sale on Ebay, I will contact the seller asking for the measurements of the diameter.

[Ron]

Fran,

I don’t think you need to fill your Gerz stein. I think the measurements you gave me support the 32 L claim. Bob gave me a photo of his stein and I calculated the ratio of the upper diameter to the lower diameter and it is close to the ration of the figures you provided me. That means Bob’s measurements must be off. I will ask him to check again.

I don’t recall anyone I know in Pittsburgh that collects steins. Are you sure they aren’t confusing me with someone else?

[Francatan]

Ron,

Bob confirmed to me that his stein’s diameter at the base is 14.5″, it means it’s 3″ wider. 3″ is not a trascurable difference, obviously we can’t say that a man 5’9″ tall is the same height of another 6 feet tall. Everybody can notice the difference.

The point is why Gerz manufactured the same stein, with the same height, but the old version, the one with the cherub lid was wider? And if the stein with diameter at the base 14.5″ was 32L capacity (as I think), why the stein with diameter 3″ less, like mine, with king Gambrinus lid, manufactured later was declared 32L of capacity too?

I think it’s sure that mine steins’ capacity is lower than 32L, because I have 2 steins 12L and they are located close to them. Even a blind can notice that the Gerz are bigger, yes, wider and higher, but capacity cannot be almost triple, 20L is a very considerable difference.

Probably Bob and my Pittsburgh’s friend have confused you with Ron Fox. Never mind, sometimes some mistake happen.

[Ron]

Fran,

Bob sent me photos showing the measurements and I can’t dispute them. His stein is larger than your stein even with a cherub playing a harp. I found a German firm that has the Zoeller & Born 32 L stein. I will see if they will give me their measurements and it they know anything about a 42 L stein. I also contacted the guy with the listing on ebay.

A cylinder with a diameter of 8.125 inches and a height of 34 inches will hold 32 L. A cylinder with a diameter of 6.5 inches and a height of 22 inches will hold 12 L. If you want to verify your 12 L steins, just give me the measurements.

[Francatan]

Ron,
here we are! Bob sent even to me photos, I remeasured my stein and I pleasantly discovered that Bob’s stein and mine measures are equal. Last time I measured the stein I didn’t lay it down, so base’s diameter measure went wrong.

On the other hand, I’ve been wondering a simple question: could the mold be different, could Gerz manufactured the same stein with different size and declare the same capacity? No sense.

The only thing that soon or late I’d like to test is the real capacity. To tell the true, my impression is that can’t hold 32L, but much less.

Here are the measurements of the 12L stein: height 26″. base diameter 10″, neck diameter 6″.
But don’t waste time to figure out the capacity, I can test it without problem, just gimme the time to find some proper glass to pull out water, at least 2/3 of the whole capacity to avoid damages.

[Ron]

Fran,

What were you measuring that you were off three inches?

You didn’t give me enough information on the 12 L stein. If I use 26 inches as the depth and deduct two inches for foam, that gives me an interior depth of 24 inches. If I average the two diameters that gives me an average of 8 inches or a radius of 4 inches. Putting the radius of 4 inches and the height of 24 inches into the formula on the Internet, I get 1206.37 cubic inches or 19.8 L. Way to much for a 12 L stein. If I deduct .25 inches for the wall, I get a radius of 3.75 inches. Using a fill line height of 16.5 inches will then yield a volume of 728.95 cubic inches. That is real close to 12 L. I think the 26 inch height you gave me was to the top of the lid.

I am sending an e-mail to the German firm of Herrmann Geschenke. They have the Zoeller & Born stein on their web page. Of course, the wrong story is told about it, so I will give them the correct information. I find it hard to believe that Gerz would make a bigger stein and not advertise it to the world.

[Francatan]

Ron,

sorry about my mistake about the wrong measure I figured at the base diameter of the 32L Gerz stein, I can realize I looked so silly to measured it off 3 inches, but it’s happened and now, as I told you in the previous message, after measured the stein laying it down, measure of base diameter is correct, it’s 14.5″.

About the 12L stein, I’m gonna give you more very detailed measurements, but not so different then I did before. The following are the extremely correct measurements, so: .25″ the wall, height without lid is 25.5″ considering .5 base wall, circumferences 1.75″ up the base is 27″.

Read it very carefully: the base is protruding, but inside there’s the recess, so if it’s filled with water, the recess is filled first and then starts in a straight line from the 27″ circumference minus .5 of wall, so 26.5″.

The neck circumference is 21″, the net diameter is 5.5″ excluding the wall. Do not waste time making calcultions because tomorrow I will fill it with water and I will tell you exactly the capacity. I really think it’s 12 liter.

I’m agree, Gerz or Zoller $ Born could never make a bigger stein and do not advertise it to the world. It wouldn’t have been in their interest, because stein collectors would do everything to buy the new largest stein in the world.

[Ron]

Fran,

I have a 1/2 L stein that is in the shape of a cylinder and the formula works for it. I don’t understand what I am missing on a big stein that slopes to the top. I will see if I can get someone on the Internet to explain it to me.

Herrmann Geschenke got back to me. They sold the last stein in 2019. Zoeller & Born is no longer making them as the guy that fired them in the kilns retired.

I haven’t found anybody that has responded to my request for a contact at WW-Team. I have one more source to try.

[Ron]

Fran,

I found a site that gives the calculation for the volume of a conical frustum, essentially a cone with the top cut off. That should fit for a sloping stein. See https://www.calculator.net/volume-calculator.html?rconicalfrustumtopradius=2.25&rconicalfrustumtopradiusunit=inches&rconicalfrustumbottomradius=4.25&rconicalfrustumbottomradiusunit=inches&rconicalfrustumheight=22&rconicalfrustumheightunit=inches&conicalfrustum=Calculate#conicalfrustum. Entering a radius of 2.75 and 4.75 and a height of 21 yields a volume of 949.74 cubic inches or 15.6 L, too much. If I reduce the radius by .5 inch, the volume is 718.84, much closer to the 12 L volume of 732.28 cubic inches. Could we be off that much in the thickness of the walls? I posed a question to that site to see what I am missing.

[Francatan]

Ron,

at last I did it, I filled up the 12L stein. Confess that I was a little scared if the bottom might crack, but everything went well, no problem at all. Now no sense keep on doing any sort of calculation.

The final respons is against expectations: the whole capacity is more than 12L, there are 4.5″ room for foam. Obviously density of beer is major, but don’t really think that capacity of a stein is made just for beer.

I filled up the stein this way: I keep some plastic 3L bottles of wine, and I poured them one by one. Before doing that, I measured the real capacity of the 3L bottle with 1L bottle, and it contains exactily 3L.

I didn’t filled up the stein till the end, I was afraid for the bottom, but next time I’ll do it. 4.5″ room means that 1, 1.5 or even 2L more might easily get inside.

So I think that the 32L stein contains 32L, and there might be room for a little more. I guess it’s out of question that German manufacturer might claim 32L and capacity is minor.

Thank you very much for all search have you done for me about WW Team, please do not take further disturb. Maybe one day we’ll easily find what I’m looking for.

Forgot to say, I gave a look on the topic about Bruce Willis, not few stein collectors complained about him. I’m really surprised and have to admit thanks God I didn’t make any purchase from him, I could have had a bad surprise.

[Francatan]

Ron,

very interesting the site you linked, I’m sure it will be very helpful for all kind of calculation for the volume of conical items. However, I don’t know if it may help to have the exact capacity of a stein.

On the other hand, the 12L stein that I filled up yesterday made me discover that capacity is at least 1L more than 12L, and consequently I wonder a question: why manufactuter did mark the stein with 12L only? Is there any rule that forbid to mark the stein’s capacity without leaving room for the foam?

Consider that we’re talking of collection stein use only, not minor size stein to drink beer. And we both perfectly know that if we go to a pub and ask for 0.5L, waitress will serve to us stein with foam, and if we wait the time to let the foam set down, we’ll see how many liquid is missing. Nobody will serve exactily .5L of beer.

I will try to fill up and measure stein’s capacity of any size, 1L, 2L, 3L, 4L, 5L I wish to know. And I’ll let you know, of course.

[Ron]

Fran,

I think I have the solution to our problem. Shorter steins are more cylindrical and easier to measure. Taller steins taper to the top with a wider and heavier base giving them stability Look at this 12 L stein by King Werk, https://www.germansteins.com/12-liter-gold-mulit-color-beer-stein-with-dancing-bavarian-couple-lid/. I presume it is similar in shape to your 12 L stein. While the base diameter may be 10 inches, notice how much it sticks out from the body or the stein. If I assume the base juts out 0.875 inches from the base, the conical frustum calculator gets me close to 12 L useing R1 = 2.75, R2 = 3.875 and h = 21 yields a volume of 730.86 cubic inches. This is just below 12 L and is probably due to the slight flare out at the bottom of the stein.

Can you confirm the base juts out 0.875 inches at the bottom?

We have a similar problem with the Gerz 32 L stein. If I assume it juts out from the body by 1.75 inches, i can get close to 32 L with the conical frustum calculator. Can you also confirm that figure?

King Werk did confirm to me that the walls of the steins are the same from top to bottom. Is your stein marked 12 L? If it is, I am sure that there is no fill line on the stein. They are not meant to be precise measurements, they are just rating them into a class. It is like determining if a boxer is a middleweight or a light-heavyweight.

[Francatan]

Ron,

stein’s world is made by thousand and thousand of steins, but most of them are simply souvenir for tourist, the collectible steins are known by most of the collectors that avidly search and collect them.

All I want to say is that the best steins quite seldom are a surprise for collectors. The 12L King Werk stein you linked is totally similar at a pair that I got. They’re painted in 2 different version, 1 is yellow glazed exactily how the stein you linked, the only difference is the lid (I might say it’s the same story about the 32L Gerz, 1 version is with king Gambrinus, the other is with a cherub); the other, painted rustic brown, has the same lid of the photo.

So, What I described in the previous topic, that my 12L stein has 4.5″ room over 12L, it’s exactily for the 12L King Werk stein you found.

A couple of hours ago, as I told you, I verified another couple of steins: 1 was a 3L stein, maker unknown, the bottom was marked by made in Germany, 3L and nothing else, it’s massive, pewter lid, 16″,Hunter and Stug scene, squirrel handle, I saw it on sale on Ebay lately. I dare say that it does not go unnoticed. I tested it’s capacity and is exactily 3L till the rim.

The other stein I verified was a 5L Gerz stein, pewter lid, 24″, Tavern scene and it happened the same situation that tested Bob with his stein, the same height and marked 5L on the bottom too. There was 4.5″ room for foam, and it can contain 6L, I filled it up till the rim.

I was bothered to verify other steins, at last what does it matter if capacity is precisely what is described on the bottom or if there’re a few inches for foam that might enlarge capacity? And we’re talking of just 1L, maybe a little more in the above mentioned 12L King.

I think now it’s useless, but I can confirm that the 12L King stein base juts out is 0.875″ and 1.75″ base juts out for the 32L Gerz stein. In the following weeks, as Covid-19 lockdown will drop down, I will drive to a town 40 miles from mine to ask to a friend of mine ceramic worker if I can verify the 32L stein. If he says that I can, I’ll fill it up so we can stop to make any further calculation.

[Roma Stein]

Fran,

If you still check this thread, can you write. We should exchange email addresses, I collect steins and live in Rome.

Best,

RS

[Ron]

Roma,

Fran is also a member of SCI. You can find his e-mail in the membership directory of the members only section of this site Just look under Italy.

[Roma Stein]

Thanks, Ron.

[Author]

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